With Tony Blair leaving office, Oscar Reyes spoke to Michael Meacher and John McDonnell, the two left-wing MPs from Blair’s Labour Party who have declared their intention to challenge finance minister Gordon Brown for the party leadership and job of Prime Minister.
Michael Meacher
What do you hope to achieve by standing for the Labour leadership?
There should be an election rather than a coronation and a debate about the government’s direction of travel. The paramount issues are the sharp and alarming increase in inequality in Britain; the accountability of government; climate catastrophe; the privatisation of public services, which should be reversed; the weakness of employment rights; the loss of civil liberties, accompanied by the slow drumbeat of an authoritarian state; the lack of legal rights because of legal aid reform; and issues like Trident and nuclear energy. These are all areas where I believe the government is in defiance of Labour party and trade union opinion.
But my standing is not just about having a debate and a choice. Elections have their own dynamic, and we should not exclude the possibility that the left could win.
How do you assess the chances of John McDonnell?
I don’t want to discuss John McDonnell. He’s a very sincere, committed person. I have a lot of respect for him. The question is can he get the required 45 nominations? I’ve come to the conclusion he can’t. Even if I didn’t stand I don’t think he’d get anywhere near the number required.
How many MPs have you got supporting you?
I have 25 signed up and 15 to 20 who have told me that they will give their support as we draw nearer to the point of decision.
Can Labour recover from Blair? How do you intend to win back the party and those who left it?
The Blairites have hijacked the party. There has been an internal coup d’etat. We allowed him to get away with it because by 1994 we had lost four elections in a row and the party was utterly desperate to win. I think I was the only member of the shadow cabinet who didn’t vote for Blair as leader.
Now that course has got to be reversed. Not by a return to the 1980s, which is neither possible nor desirable, but through a modern progressive and participatory politics. There is a huge amount of political space that is currently unoccupied. We need to take a lead in building the kind of social democracy – socialism, not a word that is much used now – which fits current conditions.
Do you support electoral reform?
I am not at this stage in favour of electoral reform, but pluralism is important. We need to counter the overwhelming concentration of power at the top.
Why did you support the asylum bills passed by New Labour?
This has been alleged against me but it isn’t true.
You did support the Iraq war, though.
This was overwhelmingly the biggest mistake I ever made in my political life and I bitterly regret it now. When the Prime Minister came forward repeatedly to the dispatch box and indicated in great detail the inventory of weapons of mass destruction that Saddam Hussein had I could not but believe that this represented the best intelligence and I am stunned that there could be such misrepresentation, selectivity and lying.
Do you support the immediate withdrawal of the troops from Iraq now?
I believe that our troops there are currently exacerbating insecurity in the country rather than aiding it, so there should be the most rapid possible withdrawal that is compatible with salvaging whatever security can be salvaged – I’m talking about withdrawal in weeks or months.
How would you tackle the growing inequalities under New Labour?
They are monstrous. The ratio between a director in a FTSE100 company and the average person on the shopfloor 30 years ago was about 25 to one. It is now 120 to one. That is unacceptable. There should be a requirement on all major companies to open remuneration discussions to all grades of workers, from boardroom to cleaners. I would also replace the Low Pay Commission with a Pay Commission that would give advice on fair and reasonable pay differentials across the whole range, particularly at the top.
How should we tackle climate change?
I would emphasise getting out of out of fossil fuels as soon as possible, with a massive investment programme in alternative, renewable energy. Airline companies should be subject to a commitment to reduce emissions annually. We need to move far faster to hydrogen fuel-cell cars. Construction standards should be enormously increased, and households should have carbon allowances that reduce year on year – the best way of creating public awareness about the climate effects of individual activities.
All large companies should be required to report on their environmental impact each year. As Minister of Environment I brought forward legislation for this in 2003, just before I was sacked. It was lost because Gordon Brown was speaking to the CBI at Mansion House and wanted to beat his breast as a deregulatory chancellor. His eye fixed on this and, without any discussion in government, one day it was abruptly dropped. I think that speaks volumes about Gordon Brown’s lack of concern about the environment.
John McDonnell
What do you hope to achieve by standing for the Labour leadership? Can you win?
I think we’ll be able to demonstrate overwhelming support for our ideas among the rank and file of the Labour party and trade unions. So I don’t underestimate the ability of this campaign to mobilise to win. But win or lose, the campaign is part of a longer-term project of rebuilding the left and establishing a broad united front.
How many MPs have you got supporting you?
We’re up to about 25 that are publicly declared, another 10 to 15 that I can’t see going anywhere else, then another 10 to 30 that are all to play for. 44 MPs nominating is a steep hill to climb, but I think we’ll get there.
What do you make of Michael Meacher’s candidacy?
I’m disappointed. Our campaign has tried to be a rank and file campaign, undertaken as a result of broad consultation. Every left organisation within the Labour party has supported me, not one has supported Michael. Every Broad Left of every trade union affiliated to the Labour party has met and endorsed my campaign. And within the parliamentary Labour party we’re already half way there.
We have asked him to sit down with me and compare who has the most nominations, and see how we can go forward. So far he has refused.
It isn’t about the individual anyway, it’s about the policies. But you have to be able to demonstrate a record of principled support for those policies. And if you look at Michael’s record in Parliament, on most of the key issues he’s voted with New Labour, and on the biggest issue that confronted our community – the invasion of Iraq – he voted with the government. I can’t support someone who voted for a war that resulted in 650,000 Iraqis being killed.
Can Labour recover from Blair? How do you intend to win back the party and those who left it?
The key thing is to demonstrate, issue by issue, a radical break with New Labour. If you’re in favour of peace you withdraw from Iraq; you break the bizarre military alliance with Bush; you scrap Trident and don’t invest up to £70 billion in its renewal.
If you’re in favour of public services you don’t privatise but invest in them. Our argument is that we’re not going back to the old forms of nationalisation, but advocate new forms of public control which involve the workers who deliver those services, the people who receive them, and elected representatives of the local community. On the environment we want to invest in alternative power sources, not nuclear power. We’re also for increasing basic benefits and restoring the pensions link with earnings.
What we’ve seen over the last 10 years is the creation of the most unequal society since the Second World War. We want to redistribute wealth, which means tackling not just income tax but also corporation tax – which is now lower than at any time for the last 30 years.
We also support the trade union freedom bill, and have been suggesting a whole set of enforceable positive rights – to health, housing and free education – that would mark a radical break with the authoritarian form of government that Blair has introduced and Brown has supported.
Do you support proportional representation as a means to give the left more leverage?
I’m a complete pragmatist on all of this – I support the electoral system that gets Labour to power, because that enables me then to achieve what I think would be a socialist advance. I’m happy with ‘first past the post’ at the moment, because that gives us the opportunity of working for a majority Labour government. But I can also see that in Wales and Scotland – in Wales in particular – the consensus across most political parties apart from the Tories is much to the left of New Labour.
What is the next step for your campaign?
We’re publishing our manifesto on 1 May, entitled ‘Another world is possible: a manifesto for 21st century socialism’. We’ve never had a proper debate in this country about globalisation, certainly not within the Labour party. We can’t hark back to past golden ages but have to come to terms with a global economy controlled by transnational corporations that determine virtually every part of our daily life.
What are the limits to what state power can achieve, though?
Some people will remember the pre-GLC discussions about being in and against the state. That’s what government should be about in terms of socialist practice – you go into the state to transform the state. That’s why we need to develop a broad united front that works with progressive forces in civil society, the trade union working class base, and also works in dialogue with those who may not want to join Labour.
With Tony Blair leaving office, Oscar Reyes spoke to Michael Meacher and John McDonnell, the two left-wing MPs from Blair’s Labour Party who have declared their intention to challenge finance minister Gordon Brown for the party leadership and job of Prime Minister.
Michael Meacher
What do you hope to achieve by standing for the Labour leadership?
There should be an election rather than a coronation and a debate about the government’s direction of travel. The paramount issues are the sharp and alarming increase in inequality in Britain; the accountability of government; climate catastrophe; the privatisation of public services, which should be reversed; the weakness of employment rights; the loss of civil liberties, accompanied by the slow drumbeat of an authoritarian state; the lack of legal rights because of legal aid reform; and issues like Trident and nuclear energy. These are all areas where I believe the government is in defiance of Labour party and trade union opinion.
But my standing is not just about having a debate and a choice. Elections have their own dynamic, and we should not exclude the possibility that the left could win.
How do you assess the chances of John McDonnell?
I don’t want to discuss John McDonnell. He’s a very sincere, committed person. I have a lot of respect for him. The question is can he get the required 45 nominations? I’ve come to the conclusion he can’t. Even if I didn’t stand I don’t think he’d get anywhere near the number required.
How many MPs have you got supporting you?
I have 25 signed up and 15 to 20 who have told me that they will give their support as we draw nearer to the point of decision.
Can Labour recover from Blair? How do you intend to win back the party and those who left it?
The Blairites have hijacked the party. There has been an internal coup d’etat. We allowed him to get away with it because by 1994 we had lost four elections in a row and the party was utterly desperate to win. I think I was the only member of the shadow cabinet who didn’t vote for Blair as leader.
Now that course has got to be reversed. Not by a return to the 1980s, which is neither possible nor desirable, but through a modern progressive and participatory politics. There is a huge amount of political space that is currently unoccupied. We need to take a lead in building the kind of social democracy – socialism, not a word that is much used now – which fits current conditions.
Do you support electoral reform?
I am not at this stage in favour of electoral reform, but pluralism is important. We need to counter the overwhelming concentration of power at the top.
Why did you support the asylum bills passed by New Labour?
This has been alleged against me but it isn’t true.
You did support the Iraq war, though.
This was overwhelmingly the biggest mistake I ever made in my political life and I bitterly regret it now. When the Prime Minister came forward repeatedly to the dispatch box and indicated in great detail the inventory of weapons of mass destruction that Saddam Hussein had I could not but believe that this represented the best intelligence and I am stunned that there could be such misrepresentation, selectivity and lying.
Do you support the immediate withdrawal of the troops from Iraq now?
I believe that our troops there are currently exacerbating insecurity in the country rather than aiding it, so there should be the most rapid possible withdrawal that is compatible with salvaging whatever security can be salvaged – I’m talking about withdrawal in weeks or months.
How would you tackle the growing inequalities under New Labour?
They are monstrous. The ratio between a director in a FTSE100 company and the average person on the shopfloor 30 years ago was about 25 to one. It is now 120 to one. That is unacceptable. There should be a requirement on all major companies to open remuneration discussions to all grades of workers, from boardroom to cleaners. I would also replace the Low Pay Commission with a Pay Commission that would give advice on fair and reasonable pay differentials across the whole range, particularly at the top.
How should we tackle climate change?
I would emphasise getting out of out of fossil fuels as soon as possible, with a massive investment programme in alternative, renewable energy. Airline companies should be subject to a commitment to reduce emissions annually. We need to move far faster to hydrogen fuel-cell cars. Construction standards should be enormously increased, and households should have carbon allowances that reduce year on year – the best way of creating public awareness about the climate effects of individual activities.
All large companies should be required to report on their environmental impact each year. As Minister of Environment I brought forward legislation for this in 2003, just before I was sacked. It was lost because Gordon Brown was speaking to the CBI at Mansion House and wanted to beat his breast as a deregulatory chancellor. His eye fixed on this and, without any discussion in government, one day it was abruptly dropped. I think that speaks volumes about Gordon Brown’s lack of concern about the environment.
John McDonnell
What do you hope to achieve by standing for the Labour leadership? Can you win?
I think we’ll be able to demonstrate overwhelming support for our ideas among the rank and file of the Labour party and trade unions. So I don’t underestimate the ability of this campaign to mobilise to win. But win or lose, the campaign is part of a longer-term project of rebuilding the left and establishing a broad united front.
How many MPs have you got supporting you?
We’re up to about 25 that are publicly declared, another 10 to 15 that I can’t see going anywhere else, then another 10 to 30 that are all to play for. 44 MPs nominating is a steep hill to climb, but I think we’ll get there.
What do you make of Michael Meacher’s candidacy?
I’m disappointed. Our campaign has tried to be a rank and file campaign, undertaken as a result of broad consultation. Every left organisation within the Labour party has supported me, not one has supported Michael. Every Broad Left of every trade union affiliated to the Labour party has met and endorsed my campaign. And within the parliamentary Labour party we’re already half way there.
We have asked him to sit down with me and compare who has the most nominations, and see how we can go forward. So far he has refused.
It isn’t about the individual anyway, it’s about the policies. But you have to be able to demonstrate a record of principled support for those policies. And if you look at Michael’s record in Parliament, on most of the key issues he’s voted with New Labour, and on the biggest issue that confronted our community – the invasion of Iraq – he voted with the government. I can’t support someone who voted for a war that resulted in 650,000 Iraqis being killed.
Can Labour recover from Blair? How do you intend to win back the party and those who left it?
The key thing is to demonstrate, issue by issue, a radical break with New Labour. If you’re in favour of peace you withdraw from Iraq; you break the bizarre military alliance with Bush; you scrap Trident and don’t invest up to £70 billion in its renewal.
If you’re in favour of public services you don’t privatise but invest in them. Our argument is that we’re not going back to the old forms of nationalisation, but advocate new forms of public control which involve the workers who deliver those services, the people who receive them, and elected representatives of the local community. On the environment we want to invest in alternative power sources, not nuclear power. We’re also for increasing basic benefits and restoring the pensions link with earnings.
What we’ve seen over the last 10 years is the creation of the most unequal society since the Second World War. We want to redistribute wealth, which means tackling not just income tax but also corporation tax – which is now lower than at any time for the last 30 years.
We also support the trade union freedom bill, and have been suggesting a whole set of enforceable positive rights – to health, housing and free education – that would mark a radical break with the authoritarian form of government that Blair has introduced and Brown has supported.
Do you support proportional representation as a means to give the left more leverage?
I’m a complete pragmatist on all of this – I support the electoral system that gets Labour to power, because that enables me then to achieve what I think would be a socialist advance. I’m happy with ‘first past the post’ at the moment, because that gives us the opportunity of working for a majority Labour government. But I can also see that in Wales and Scotland – in Wales in particular – the consensus across most political parties apart from the Tories is much to the left of New Labour.
What is the next step for your campaign?
We’re publishing our manifesto on 1 May, entitled ‘Another world is possible: a manifesto for 21st century socialism’. We’ve never had a proper debate in this country about globalisation, certainly not within the Labour party. We can’t hark back to past golden ages but have to come to terms with a global economy controlled by transnational corporations that determine virtually every part of our daily life.
What are the limits to what state power can achieve, though?
Some people will remember the pre-GLC discussions about being in and against the state. That’s what government should be about in terms of socialist practice – you go into the state to transform the state. That’s why we need to develop a broad united front that works with progressive forces in civil society, the trade union working class base, and also works in dialogue with those who may not want to join Labour.